Present Imperfect

Present Imperfect, episode six: Josiah Kaplan on the rights of children on the move

Josiah

We could see technical challenges in predicting climate displacement trends or significant, and a lot of the data is still clarifying and emerging, but some estimates range from the potential by 2050 to have an additional 44 to 130 million people, some starker scenarios as high as 216 million people, displaced by climate change. 

Patrizia

Hello and welcome to a new episode of Present Imperfect, the podcast series dedicated to children's rights by UNICEF Innocenti Global Office of Research and Foresight. As always, I'm Patrizia Faustini and I'm joined by the writer and journalist Melanie Grant. 

Melanie

Hi, Patrizia, I'm so happy to be here and ready to just learn and listen on this topic. 

Patrizia

And do you know that this is the last episode in the series? 

Melanie

Oh, don't make me sad, Patricia. I can't believe that we're coming to the end of it. But, you know, let's, right, let's go on a journey and a ride for this one. 

Patrizia

And I feel very sad too, but I think that today we are covering a very interesting and current issue, and this makes me feel much better: children on the move and their rights. As usual, we will have a great specialist and expert who directs research on this topic at UNICEF Innocenti. But before we welcome him, we will just go through the topic.

It's widely recognized that migrants make a positive contribution to inclusive growth and sustainable development in countries of origin and destination and according to the latest report of the Department of Economic and Social Affairs of the United Nations, 281 million people lived outside their country of origin in 2020. They represent about 3.6% of the world's population. 

Melanie

It's important to recall that freedom of movement is a human right, recognized under article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Now, there's no internationally agreed definition of migrants. It varies by context and purpose and when you think of it, there are thousands of people who choose to leave their countries of origin each year looking for better opportunities and a better life.

But an increasing number of migrants are also forced to leave their homes for a combination of multiple reasons. There's poverty, lack of access to health care, education, water, food, housing, the consequences of environmental degradation and climate change, as well as discrimination and conflict. 

Patrizia

And moreover, we must say that while migrants are not inherently vulnerable, they can be vulnerable to human rights violation, and the denial of migrants' rights is often closely linked to discriminatory laws, attitudes, prejudice, or xenophobia. And it is increasingly clear that a lack of human rights-based migration approach at the global and national levels is leading to the routine violation of migrants' rights in transit at international borders and in countries where they migrate to. 

Melanie

And with the adoption of landmark agreements by the UN General Assembly, including the New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants and the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration, countries have begun to adopt measures that facilitate migration. 

Patrizia

And probably you noted that this is an overall picture of international migration, but we haven't mentioned children yet. And this is also because children on the move are part of a global phenomenon that involves families and communities. But this cannot hide the fact that children are also persons with rights who exercise their agency and take decisions about their lives and future, including the decision of migrating. In 2020, 36 million out of 281 international migrants, were children and children on the move are not a homogeneous group. They include refugees, internally displaced persons, children who migrate alone or with their families in the hope of a better life, or children who are forced by social, cultural, economic and natural factors. 

Melanie

And sadly, migrating and displaced children are at risk of some of the worst forms of abuse and harm, often dependent on human smuggling. They can easily fall victim to traffickers and other criminals. Many is subjected to extreme forms of abuse and deprivation during their journeys. When and if these children reach their destination countries, the threats they face don't just go away. 

Patrizia

And now, to understand the situation of children who migrate with or without their families, the drivers, the risks and the violation of rights they are subject to, but also what can be done to protect their rights, we have invited Josiah Kaplan, child protection specialist at UNICEF Innocenti. 

Melanie

Josiah is an expert in international aids and child protection, with a passionate interest in the experiences of children and youth in contexts of forced displacement and migration. He serves as a senior research advisor of Safe International's Global Migration and Displacement Initiative, otherwise known as MDI. Together with the team, he contributes to establish, coordinate, and drive forward child focused migration and displacement research and innovation initiative across the safe movement. 

Patrizia

Hello, Josiah and welcome. Thank you for taking the time to be with us today. And before starting, would you like to say something about you? How did you start your career? How did you end up leading on children on the move? And in our introduction, we just mentioned this MDI movement. If you want to say a few words about that, that would be great for our listener. 

Josiah

Sure, Patricia. And, great to be here. You know, you always look back in retrospect and things make sense. I can't say I have had a particular plan for getting here, but I have been working in the domain of humanitarian evidence, for about 15 years. And over that time, I've focused more and more on what we need to know to get better at helping children, ensure that their rights are protected and also their well-being is delivered.

And that's really the function of what we do here at UNICEF. To that end, I've been very fortunate to have opportunities to work on the specific intersection of childhood and mobility. First at Oxford University. Whereas, working with the Refugee Studies Center, looking at how children and young people and their families, make lives for themselves, in how they innovate, how they create livelihood solutions, for their own sustainable, economic, well-being. 

I've worked for, Save the Children first, Save the Children UK and then Save the Children International and at Save the Children International I was very lucky to be part of a really exciting team called the Migration Displacement Initiative that did a lot of work, really, at the intersections of child protection, well-being, education, but with a strong focus on innovation, all through the lens of child migrants and refugees.

And I've, tried to continue that work here at UNICEF Innocenti Global Office of Research and Foresight, where I lead our work, as part of our gender rights protection team, but really crossly thematically looking at child migrants, child refugees, IDPs and other populations of concern that, as we say in UNICEF are part of the children on the move group. And, and I do a lot of work there with my colleagues, on research, evidence, analysis and data, but all of it to the same end, which is improving the practical day to day work we do on behalf of and for these children. 

Melanie

Josiah, it's Melanie here. Thank you so much for joining us. I wonder... this sounds like a fantastic career, and I want to just... If we take it back from your research, who are... can you tell us who the children on the move are, why they're on the move from country to country, and how? 

Josiah

Sure. So, I think to begin, we need to set some definitions up. Some of the categories of children who engage in migration and, and why they do that. But that's a very tricky thing to do, because definitions can vary across different governments, organizations and actors. And often the definitions we use, the categorical containers we place children in for technical and legal and political reasons, that's not how children themselves see them, their own identity, which is much more complex and changes, it's fluid throughout their journeys. So, one very simple and helpful way of defining, who these children are is to think of three broad categories under the term children on the move. The first category is children who move nationally or internationally for a variety of economic and social reasons. The second is children outside of their countries of origin who are in need of specific international protection. And that's where we would group children with refugee status, children in refugee like situations, asylum seeking children. Third are children who are internally displaced within their own countries and whether that is for conflict, violence, displacement or other causes. And across all three categories, which again, are abstractions I'll come back to that point in real in a moment, because in reality, many children do move very fluidly between these domains, we have children who are especially vulnerable and elsewhere we would consider children, for instance, who are unaccompanied minors, who are separated from their families, who are stateless, who are smuggled and or trafficked. And that's really where we do a lot of our work, but by no means, do we consider children not in those categories not priorities as well.

So that's who they are.  As for why they move, well, many move because they can't stay in their homes due to violence or conflict or fragility or environmental stressors. But many also move aspirationally in search of better life opportunities, whether that be improved livelihoods, educational opportunities or family reunification. So critically, movement can be both an act of desperation but also of aspiration, and often are both at the same time. What's really important to emphasize here is that for many, many children, when you talk to them, and that's what we have done through our research, they point to a combination of these reasons, these drivers of movement. It's a complex calculus of push and pull factors, and I just like to say for many of us to work in organizations like UNICEF, and I think for a lot of people listening right now, our audience, who here is living and working in a country they weren't born in or didn't grow up, or community or move from a, you know, their, their hometown to a city far away. We all do this. Migration is intrinsic to all of our lives. And it's complicated. And so that's sometimes where we get challenged about reducing that to simplicity.

As for the third part of your question, in terms of how they move, there are regular and irregular pathways and some of these routes and crossings, particularly the irregular pathways, such as a central Mediterranean crossing or on foot over the Darien Gap in Latin America, are much more dangerous than others. When we say regular and irregular, that's a complicated terminology, and it's politically loaded as well. But there are pathways that are formally recognized by, by states, and then there are those that are not. And taking a child perspective here in some ways, for the child, what matters is what risks they're facing by choosing one pathway over the other.

Some children move with their families and some travel unaccompanied as well, which is why the protection of unaccompanied minors are such a major concern and priority for organizations like UNICEF. But they're again, many, many more, additional movements as well and it's important to point out as well, that many children in contexts of protracted displacement or waiting in limbo asylum claim processing or elsewhere, they're not actively on the move.

And so while we use the term children on the move as a general phrase, for, our purposes of, of planning and operations, there's still an aspect of immobility, often in these journeys. But cutting across all these factors are huge distinctions between how different types of children move. Particularly the differences between how girls encounter challenges and, and adaptations compared to boys, but also children with disabilities, children of different ages. You can imagine the differences in lived experience between a ten-year old's journey and a 60-year old's journey. So obviously a very simplified answer to a very big question, but hopefully gets the ball rolling. 

Patrizia

Thank you, Josiah, very clear and we mentioned before that migrating is a human right. But what does it mean from a child rights perspective? Can you say something to that? 

Josiah

Sure. Yes, absolutely. So, the most important point to start with here is that the UN Convention on the rights of the child, the CRC, enshrines a set of universal rights for children based on the notion that children too are equal human beings, but are also entitled to distinct, necessary protections. And that none of these rights are in any way negated by the fact that the child is in movement.

So, the first point is, is actually a very simple one. A child is a child first, regardless of their migratory status or what a state determines to be their legal status because of migration and, as such, they are fully entitled to their rights as children. And in practice, our work on behalf of children on the move needs to be guided by and informed by the core principles of the CRC, and so what that looks like for children is that some rights, such as the right to non-discrimination, article 2 of the CRC, best interests of the child, article 3, the right to life, survival and development, health and education, article 6,19, 24, 28 and the right to participation, the opportunity to be heard in key decisions affecting them in their family's lives, like article 12,  that all is equally and often particularly important during periods of movement for children on the move. There are also some areas that become very, very pertinent at a technical level, which I'll come to later in terms of the work we actually do, directly with these children, such as the right to birth registration and documentation, in article 7, where the right not to be separated from their families, the right for family reunification, article 10. So, there are many further important nuances here. And the conversation can get very complex very quickly, it's further complicated by the fact that refugees, for example, are specifically defined and protected in international law under mechanisms started with the 1951 Refugee Convention. And ensuring refugees are not expelled or returned to dangerous situations, what we call refold, where their lives or freedom is at risk is a particular domain of children on the move work, but it doesn't mean that children without formal refugee status don't also face similar risks. So, there are grey areas. And there are a number of international connecting global and regional frameworks that help further articulate these rights and protections, such as the Global Compact for migration, Global Compact for refugees. But there's still a lot of work to be done here ensuring, the, the implementation, the enforcement of those mechanisms and a strong voice for children at the table in in helping to co-develop drug solutions.

So just to sum up that, and without getting too much into the legal domain, three points. First, children are children first, regardless of their migration status and as us they're entitled to their basic universal rights as children. Two that legal definitions matter, but they're in constant evolution contestation. And there are grey areas between these categories. And for children caught in those grey areas, that's a particularly perilous and alienating place to be. And third, children who are living and telling their own stories of their journeys, they often do not see the full extent of their experiences fitting neatly into one or between one of those categories of legal definitions. 

Melanie

It strikes me, you know, when I think about it, how? When I think about the beginning and how it starts, I wonder, you know, migration is a multi-part journey. What, the main drivers for children who decide to move in the first instance, can you share some of the global stats and trends on that as well, please? 

Josiah

Sure. Yeah. So, let's zoom out for a moment. We talk about all sorts of, of global issues. This podcast is engaged with a lot of the mega trends and the key factors shaping childhood today and emerging into the 21st century. I would argue that more often than not, the human manifestation of a lot of these mega trends is going to be human mobility, whether that's climate change or urbanization or conflict or technological integration.

People react by moving. And so, this is a huge and cross-cutting theme for UNICEF, but also for the entire aid sector and, and really for all of humanity. And the numbers are pretty staggering. I mean, in 2020, there was an estimated 35.5 million international child migrants, but that's the largest number ever recorded. And that number has been rising regularly year by year.

Most disturbingly, though, the number of children forcibly displaced internally and internationally has more than doubled in the last ten years. So, at the end of 2023, for instance, UNHCR, reports approximately 117.3 million people worldwide living in contexts of forced displacement. Two out of five are children, and it's quite stark. In 2010, 18.8 million children were displaced. In 2023, that number has risen to 47.2 million. And the drivers, are only getting worse, not better. So, children who are coerced to move, due to conflict, to violence, to changing environments, due to severe, resource scarcity. That decision is an absolutely defining one for the rest of, of their children and often the rest of their lives and, you know, on, that side of things, the feeling of insecurity, particularly from violence, it can be due to broad conflict, such as we're seeing in Ukraine and Gaza and unfortunately, many other examples. It could be from also natural disasters, slow and fast onset, but it also can be from household violence. And so there are many drivers of forced displacement, in non-voluntary movement, climate change is a critical one. That is a threat multiplier. It's exacerbating many existing, stress points that cause people to move without wanting to or feeling that they're in a position to do so safely.

We're seeing, for instance, rising ocean levels threatening coastal communities in Bangladesh. We're seeing entire small island states at risk of literally going underwater. Look at contexts like Vanuatu, for instance. We're seeing agrarian communities in hell and elsewhere facing desertification. And, and those numbers are also huge. So, we could see technical challenges in predicting climate displacement. Trends are significant. And a lot of the data is still clarifying and emerging. But some estimates, range from the potential by 2050 to have an additional 44 to 130 million people, some starker scenarios as high as 216 million people, displaced by climate change. And then to see on the other side of that equation is the aspirational drivers, plus push and pull factors for movement.

So we have, you know, the opportunities and the desires, and the aspirations to seek better livelihoods, better education access, better health services, opportunities to earn money in a new community either within your country, in a wealthier part of the country or abroad, and then send money back by remittances. In fact, much of the world's economy works on just that principle, but also opportunities to reunite with family members who may be working away from home.

And importantly, because I think we, particularly those of us listening in the global North or certain Western context, we often view migration through the lens of international migration, but most migration is not, international. It's moving, for instance, from a rural community to a larger urban center in one's own country. 

Melanie

Josiah, can I just ask, how often is the family involved in in this decision? 

Josiah

Well, I would say as a general rule, the decision making around migration is a collective and often negotiated process, and every family is different. So, some children are, extremely powerless in their household. Some are not. And it really is, is extremely dependent on the individuals in that household. But as a general point, the household is part of a collective decision-making process as often as a community.

It's not just an individual, or at least not always an individual. And B, we don't know enough about how that decision-making process occurs. That is one of the cutting-edge areas where we need more research to take a look at the household as a collective decision-making entity in migration. 

Patrizia

And is this decision also, conditioned by peers? So how much adolescents or young, children who decide to migrate, take this decision together with the peers they belong to? 

Josiah

It's a great question. And again, the very short, simplistic answer is that, yes, peers have a huge role to play. And we do see this in in some of the research. We see this anecdotally, and we should probably be saying decisions because the migration journey can be cyclical:  children and young people can often go abroad, return, go abroad, return. There's many, many decision points along a migration channel as well. So, it's not just a onetime decision, but we're also in an era where we're digitally interconnected and factoring that into the process means that children may be influenced by their peers, but they're also influenced by what they see on the internet, globally. And I've worked in, in, refugee contexts where because there's a 3G connection, you have children in protracted displacement, growing up watching, you know, on YouTube commercials for luxury cars in Germany and, and, day to day life in, in Beijing. And it is a, a world of global influences. So, it's very important that we move past a really simplistic view of children as isolated entities because they are they're talking to their families, you're talking to their peers, you're talking to community members who have returned abroad. They may be talking by, you know, WhatsApp to their cousin, who is already living in another country and sending money back through remittances. So, it's a really closely connected world. 

Melanie

So, what are some of the hardest things that children endure when moving and what's what can you explain, a push back of global rights in the field of child migration. What does that mean? 

Josiah

Sure. So let me take that question in two parts. There are many, many challenges, of course, that children face and multiple stages of their journey, starting with the decision to move. And that can be a very, very, very challenging experience, certainly in context of forced displacement, where that decision might be very abrupt and very, very scary.

But even if it isn't, it's still a departure, it's still a goodbye, so, from a, what we would say, a psychosocial dimension that can be an extremely hard and painful process, then there's a period of transit which can be many months, but also if you are flying, that could be a matter of hours. But there is a, a period of liminality in which one is in movement.

And then there's a very long-term experience of trying to make a new life in a new place. We call longer term integration. Some children who return to their community of origin, for instance, those who either voluntarily return or who are deported, they may be facing reintegration in a community that hasn't been home for them for many, many years. So, there are many challenges at those different stages. But the one that I think, you know, immediately come to mind from our child protection work at UNICEF and that of our colleagues and peers is exposure to violence, exploitation and abuse, including trafficking, and then smuggling and border crossings are particularly fraught spaces for children. And, of course, unaccompanied minors are especially vulnerable.

Gender, as I've said, is a huge dimension here, with girls and boys facing very different types of risks and vulnerabilities and the mental health impacts across these journeys, the constant fear, the anxiety and the unknown, the language barriers, encountering xenophobia, marginalization, challenging access to essential services, the psychosocial impact, let alone the physical, or health impact is just tremendous, even though we still don't know enough about that.

In practice, from the evidence base, and we also know that children in, in hosting communities also face similar challenges. And it needs to be recognized that effective and sustainable policies for addressing child well-being, child rights, child protection that needs to take into account children already living in communities of destination or in transit. And I think it does us, you know, service in, in this in this work to disregard that dimension of it.

And that brings me to the second point, which is around pushback. So, migration in all its forms has always been and will always be a highly political and therefore politicized issue. This isn't something to shy away from. This is something anyone working on migration, whether for children or adults or both, needs to accept as a starting premise. Now, only speaking in the realm of international migration, because this is such a vast debate, what I think we're seeing and there's a lot of analysis and a lot of ink spilled on this topic, is the very concerning normalization of policies that threaten, or in some cases, directly violate children's fundamental rights as children as a means of deterring unwanted migration.

And I think we see that in examples such as the fierce debates, very visible, very front and center in, in public discourse around child detainment and family separation along the US Mexican border. You could take the UK's recent debates on the offshore processing of migrant asylum claims. A lot of the controversy surrounding the new EU pact on migration and asylum, and from the child rights community.

There's a lot of concern that these developments are setting precedents that erode respect for core principles of child and adult migrant rights, such as the right to non-refoulement, the right of children not to be detained or institutionalized or separated from their families. Now, the proponents of these policy initiatives argue, in part, that they are taking steps to reduce unsafe pathways of migration, such as the very dangerous crossings by boat along the Central Mediterranean route and deterring smuggling and the risk of exploitative practices like trafficking by tightening up the regulatory, oversight and narrowing of regular pathways.

And I'm not going to summarize or give justice to the full sweep of that debate, but I think it's fair to say we are seeing that as a as a trend, a normative shift, which we call a global pushback against child rights in the migration space. And I think that echoes perhaps a broader global pushback against some of the normative foundations upon which a lot of the international order, post-World War Two, really has been established.

And behind that debate is, I think, a lot of the drivers that we mentioned earlier, poverty, conflict and resource scarcity, climate change, urbanization, technological interconnectivity, and all of those are only increasing. So, while governments may close regular pathways to migration, they are not going to stop the pressure that communities and families and households and individuals feel to move. They're just going to see more and more movement along irregular pathways. And I think that is one of the fundamental policy challenges in need of an urgent solution facing us for the rest of the century. 

Patrizia

Thank you. Josiah. Now let's touch upon, a bit of, positive aspects. Can you discuss some successful strategies or programs implemented to protect children on the move? What should governments do to protect migrant and refugee children? 

Josiah

Sure. So easy question. But I think first of all, the spirit of it is absolutely right. There's a lot of good practice out there, decades of it. And I think sometimes we run the risk in focusing on these big structural issues around migration, displacement of losing sight of the fact that there is still so much more we can be doing and on so many practical, aspects, things we can concretely improve at the programmatic level. So, for example, UNICEF works globally to ensure access to essential protection services, for children on the move and their families, such as mental health and psychosocial support. Access to information, referral pathways to specialized services. We work to keep families together, ensure children have legal status.

We advocate against detainment. We help ensure children stay in school at multiple stages of their journey and stay healthy. And we press for action at an advocacy level, on, combating xenophobia and discrimination and also some of the root causes that, that, drive children in their families to leave communities for good when they would prefer to stay. And all of these dimensions are part of holistic, multi thematic, multi-regional and multi-country programmatic responses, such as our work along migration routes in East West, sub-Saharan Africa, the Central Mediterranean, in in Asia, in South Asia, in Latin America, up through the Darien Gap to the US, Mexico border. This is a vast array of, of interventions, but of course, that's just UNICEF.

We work closely with partners across the UN system and the wider aid sector. And I could give you hundreds more examples from across the world, from colleagues in other agencies. But also, and I really do want to stress this, I would say that that the vast bulk of the best practices out there are being implemented by community-based organizations and civil society, many led by migrant and displaced youth and adults themselves.

And in fact, for listeners who may feel they want to be part of solutions, I'd encourage you to go local as local as possible. If you're not already, see what your own community is doing to support and protect migrant and displaced children. And if it isn't enough in your backyard, then start something. And so, there's a lot of inspiration out there. At the same time, the critical bottleneck at the programmatic level is a severe lack of sustainable resourcing and we need to have commitments from donors, from governments, but also from other partners, such as a private sector, to help provide the resources and political will to sustain the scale of programmatic interventions that we're going to need to keep pace with these growing global populations that I've been speaking about thus far and right now we're only getting a fraction of that. So, I do want to end on a positive note. There's great work being done, there's inspirational work being done, and there's a lot we know from the evidence about how to do this right. But we need to make sure that the political will and the resourcing is there to actually put it into practice. 

Melanie

Very positive. You mentioned earlier, host countries and how they receive children on the move. How can how can we ensure that children on the move are given a voice and, and can contribute to actively to their new host countries and communities when they arrive? 

Josiah

Well, the simple answer is talk to them and ask them. And the complicated answer is creating the spaces and investing in the spaces that allow that to happen. Or even better, that build on what is already happening. So, creating safe and inclusive spaces for participation, like child friendly forums and digital platforms, ensuring we build strong consultation mechanisms into the design of our participatory policy and programming work, embedding child participation in national frameworks and mechanisms around migration, asylum systems, really enshrining that and ring fencing it in national laws and policies and of course, and of course making sure that children are represented in global forum like the global refugee for the cop climate talks, the UN General Assembly, which is, going on right now. Now, we already have a lot of these youth leadership platforms in place, but we need to better integrate them and ensure that they're better consulted in the policy formation process.

And that requires empowering youth leaders through education and advocacy training, leadership training. Notice I'm saying we collectively as the adults in the room, but a lot of the fundamental problem with this work is that we are presuming we are holding the invitation letter. And while we're doing this, children and youth around the world are reacting in their own ways in a myriad of ways, not just at policy forums, but through art and music and expression, through conversations in schoolyards, through anger, through protests about what they're seen as, as global challenges and the exclusion of their voices around the table.

And migration and displacement are, of course, as we discussed earlier, front and center in these public debates. So, we need to also be building on what exists and what children and youth are already leading on themselves. That engagement also critically needs to be inclusive. It needs to be gender sensitive. It needs to include children of disabilities. It can't just focus on the oldest youth or, you know, we say young people that that sometimes invisible as is the voices and needs of younger children themselves who, you know, ten year old may not be in a position to address a global youth forum, but they have voices, they have perspectives that are very distinct to the ten-year-old experience. And I think, you know, we have a lot of, of opportunities to do just that.  At Innocenti, for instance, we've been spotlighting the work of refugee led youth organizations who are an under acknowledged source of leadership in refugee communities and mixed migrant communities for informing meaningful, impactful, youth-centred program design. So, there's a lot of very exciting work to be done in this space. And again, there's a lot of inspiration there and hope. 

Melanie

How do you think international cooperation can enhance respect and implementation of the rights of the child on the move? 

Josiah

Well, I would say international cooperation is essential. It's almost a starting premise. Through coordinated efforts, countries and international organizations can create they can create more effective legal frameworks, allocate resources more efficiently, and they can do more to ensure collaboratively that the rights of child migrants we've already been discussing are upheld globally. That means, in practice, strengthening legal protections for children through the enhancement and reinforcement of international law, creating binding obligations and perhaps more enforceable guidelines, such as through existing mechanisms like the global compacts.

And it also requires a lot of adaptation, innovation and creative thinking in multinational funding, landscapes and mechanisms, and a donor push to signal the need for more multilateral coordination between aid agencies. So that pressure really does need to come from governments and from donors. A critical gap remains the coordination of cross border child protection mechanisms, children's routes, really, really challenging, kind of neat and clean distinctions in in geographical zones.

Responsibility we like to see on maps as, as bureaucracies, children move between countries, between regions back and forth. They require us to think in truly international ways, as well as regional ways. And even within a country, thinking in, in new joined up ways. And so the international, the national and local cannot be separated. And we need more equitable resource sharing. We need technical and financial support and capacity enhancement from wealthier countries and international bodies like those in the UN to better support origin, transit and host countries throughout the global South, which again bear a disproportionate, burden of responsibility in in addressing these global migration and displacement challenges. It's a huge discussion. And many priorities are being left unsaid in this answer.

But in short, international cooperation isn't a question. It's a foundational assumption of better supporting children on the move. 

Patrizia

And now, Josiah, can you say something about the research role in implementing the rights of children on the move? 

Josiah

Sure. It's absolutely essential. Research is part of a spectrum of evidence, including as well, data for site evaluation and analysis. Let's know what works, what doesn't, why and how we can get better. That's the heart of evidence-based decision making and design. We work with key evidence. Leaders across the UN system, including our close colleagues at UNHCR and IOM, in regional organizations, in ministries, civil society, and critically in academia as well, and then think tanks to generate their cutting-edge, evidence and feed that directly into evidence-based decision making.

I see this as well. And I think my colleagues at in a chance to share this not just as a practical imperative, but an ethical one as well. We are accountable to doing the best we can for these populations, for claiming to support. And to do that, we need to learn and improve, at the same time, there remains huge gaps in our knowledge and our knowledge coordination. We need for one much, much more in the way of grounded insights into children's lived experiences in context of migration and displacement in their own voices. At UNICEF Innocenti I'm very proud of the research we've done in this space, which includes hearing from children's perspectives in contexts of migration and displacement around the world, from the Horn of Africa to Afghanistan, Pakistan, North Africa, and Europe. But there's so much more to do here. And I would certainly encourage any listeners who might be in, in academia or in research contexts, to reach out, because this is where we're going to find, that, that that rich body of collaborative knowledge generation. But we also need better coordination and management of what we do know of the data and evidence we have from across the aid sector, governments and research communities, and sometimes when I speak to this question, it sounds a little bit of a paradox, but it's true in some ways. We have huge gaps in data, in evidence, in research and analysis, in other domains. We're absolutely drowning in too much information that is not being used. And so, we need coordination here. I'd like to mention, as an example of good practice, the leadership of the International Data Alliance for children on the move, which is a cross-sectoral global coalition that aims to improve data and statistics and support evidence-based policymaking for children on the move. And that's something that UNICEF is proud to co-lead with colleagues from Eurostat, IOM, OECD and UNHCR. And I think it's mechanisms like that that are urgently needed to make sure that we're not just answering knowledge gaps, but that we're giving a pathway and a coordination function to all of that, that very rich and valuable information, again, for the purpose of improving the work we do in the impact, we do for children on the move. 

Patrizia

Thank you. Josiah, I have one last question before finishing off this very, very interesting conversation, what are the three most urgent things you would like to have for children on the move worldwide? So, what would you recommend? 

Josiah

I'm glad we're ending on such an easy one. Now, the real answer here is is looking at this is an amazingly complex and absolutely urgent issue. It's only becoming more complex and more urgent by the day as again, we're seeing the combined drivers of factors, like conflict, climate change, resource scarcity, urbanization. I also want to mention here large-scale demographic shifts amongst others.

That's going to manifest in more and more people in movement, including children. So, there's more than just three things to do, of course, but unequivocable urgent priorities first is the maintenance of international respect for and offering a staunch defense of the fundamental rights of children enshrined in the CRC, regardless of the modality with which they engage in movement.

Those rights are portable, but they're non-negotiable. There's nothing about being quote unquote on the move that negates them. And against a growing normalization, the challenges, the managing of migration, as somehow a space in which, we can compromise on those, those, those values that calls for strong pushback, for strong defense. Now, of course, at the same time, we need to work out pragmatic, realistic policy and programmatic solutions that maintain these red lines, but also, consider the needs of host communities of, of political realities as well. And that's where the true challenge lies. And maybe that's something for another podcast, perhaps. But we can't go forward in this space without remaining firmly committed to and staunch defenders of children's human rights. Second, we need to ensure that children are engaged throughout the process as co-owners and co-creators of their own solutions.

This does not mean, and here I'm addressing colleagues in the child protection rights space, specifically adding undue burden on young people with enough on their plates to also do our work for us. Nor does it mean tokenistic representation, but it does mean we make child participation and engagement a meaningful part of the work we do on behalf of all children on the move.

And third, we need to be preparing yesterday for the future. We need to be working to identify, through data and evidence led decision making, through foresight and anticipatory planning and thinking, what is working and what do we need to scale up in terms of solutions, what isn't working, and what needs to be fixed in our approaches to ensure more impactful action, and what will not keep pace with rapidly evolving trends. So, we need to be addressing the problems of 2024 we absolutely need to be thinking about 2050 simultaneously. All three of those priorities, I think are in good hands if we take a proactive stance towards them because I am every single day inspired by the work that my colleagues at UNICEF and its partners across the aid sector are doing, but also the millions and millions of dedicated people at all levels, from global to especially communities who are doing amazing work on behalf of children on the move and, you know, it's perhaps a cliche thing to say, but I think it certainly brings me a lot of peace. Next time you see terrible, imagery in the media of crises where people are running or leaving their homes are in crisis, pay attention to those who are there helping and moving in the direction of the problem. And they're out there and many of those people are from migrant and forcibly displaced backgrounds themselves.

And I want to end by applauding their efforts because, well, we have a lot of work to do on these issues those three priorities I mentioned, they're achievable, as are the opportunities that I've been speaking to, as long as that will is there and we are doing everything we can to support and enable it. 

Patrizia

Thank you very much, Josiah. This is the end of our very interesting conversation and see you on the next podcast. As you said, I take this as a sort of promise for being on another podcast, on a new series if there would be a new one. Thank you very much, Josiah. 

Melanie

Thank you so much, Josiah. 

Josiah

Thank you. It's been a pleasure. 

Patrizia

We just listened to Josiah Kaplan on the rights of children on the move and, as we learnt, children on the move are not a homogeneous group, rather a category which refers to children with different status stories, experiences and needs which change along the way they migrate. And first and foremost, we have to remember that children, independently from their situation and condition are children first. And for that reason, they are entitled to the same protection, care and treatment everywhere in the world, no matter why he or she leaves the home, where he or she comes from, where he or she is, or how he or she got there. So, a child is a child. And the rights of this children need to be respected everywhere in the world. We also heard that children on the move faced numerous challenges, but despite this, they remain resilient, creative and full of potential. And giving them a voice is very important for them to contribute in the country where they arrive, as well as in the country where they, come from. If enabled, they can contribute to their new communities, and together we can create a really a society where every child thrives and contributes. Don't you think so, Melanie? 

Melanie

Yeah. I couldn't have said it better. Patricia. I think, the most important thing that I took from Josiah was we need to listen to those children on the move to hear what they need and what they want. And it was just interesting to hear about the reasons the drivers for migration and children on the move and just, just the fact that they are a force and they, they do have the they, they, they have rights and they have a right to safe spaces and safe travel and also just to be welcomed wherever they go, no matter what country and where that might be. 

Patrizia

Now, I'm afraid it's time to say goodbye to our listeners. But before I want to thank my co-host Melanie Grant, it has been a wonderful journey and a pleasure to be with you on this series. 

Melanie

Likewise, Patricia. It's been it's been amazing. It's been a real journey. And a journey of discovery and learning. And it's been great. Thank you. So, so I. 

Patrizia

Hope that also, our listeners, enjoyed this series, as much as we did. And I want to say thank you to them and goodbye. I hope that this is something that, we can repeat soon with the new series, perhaps, on still on children's rights. There are many more topics that we need to cover. And I want also to remember everyone that, this year we celebrate the 35th anniversary of the Convention on the rights of the child, which is, our leading treatment, first of all, for setting and respecting children's rights. Every government, who has ratified, the Convention, which is that all governments but one, are obliged to look at this convention and implement the rights of children. 

It was a wonderful experience. And if you aren't already a subscriber, please do subscribe. If you want to write to us, our email address is [email protected]. Follow us at Unicef Innocenti on Instagram, LinkedIn and Facebook. In a charity is spelled as 

I N N O C E N T I. This episode was produced by Unicef in a charity, Global Office of Research and Foresight in collaboration with UMECast and music composed by Haydn Cheema . I am Patrizia Faustini 

Melanie

And I'm Melanie Grant and this is Present Imperfect. 

Patrizia

Stay tuned for the next podcast series from UNICEF Innocenti. More is coming and is coming soon. Thank you very much. Goodbye. 

Melanie

Goodbye. 

Present Imperfect, episode four: Gavin Wood on the rights of children with disabilities

Gavin Wood

And disability is only one dimension, and many children with disabilities do not define themselves that way or see themselves in terms of a disability. The experiences of children with disabilities are also shaped by other aspects of their identity, such as gender, ethnicity. And this means, for instance, that girls with disabilities may face both gender and disability-based discrimination affecting their access to education and healthcare even more so.

Patrizia Faustini

Welcome again to Present Imperfect, the podcast series dedicated to children's rights by UNICEF Innocenti Global Office of Research and Foresight.

I am Patrizia Faustini, communication specialist at UNICEF Innocenti and I'm joined, as usual, by the writer and journalist Melanie Grant.

Melanie Grant

Hi, Patricia, happy to be here. Can't believe we're actually on our fourth episode and I'm really excited.

Patrizia Faustini

Today we will talk about the rights of children with disabilities with a special guest and an expert who leads research on the inclusion of children with disabilities at UNICEF Innocenti. But before welcoming him, as usual let's introduce the topic. Globally nearly 240 million children live with disabilities, and the vast majority in low- and middle-income countries.

Two international Conventions, namely the Convention on the rights of the child, which our listeners are familiar with, and the Convention on the Rights of Persons with disabilities, the latter adopted in 2006, recognize the human rights and fundamental freedoms of children with disabilities.

Melanie Grant

Attitudes and the environment play a vital role in the inclusion of children with disabilities and both Conventions highlight that need to develop and fund interventions, services and fund data collection to enable them to exercise their rights and participate fully in society.

Patrizia Faustini

And we must also highlight that children with disabilities are one of the most marginalized and excluded groups.

Melanie Grant

The thing is marginalization takes many forms, including segregated and institutional care, stigma, inadequate access to assistive technologies, physical communication or attitudinal barriers and inadequate social support mechanisms. And then there's social challenges such as poverty, conflicts, and the weakness of the socio-political systems that amplify exclusion and discrimination. Inclusive policies are those that take into account the voices, needs and priorities of children with disabilities in designing how to implement resources across all sectors, from health to education to family to schools.

Patrizia Faustini

And now to delve deeper into such a complex topic. We welcome our special guest, Doctor Gavin Wood.

Melanie Grant

Gavin first joined UNICEF in 2010 as part of their Office of Emergency Programs, first working in the aftermath of the devastating earthquake in Haiti and many emergency situations. Since then, he's co-chaired and led several U.N. and inter-agency groups on information management systems, decision support, and coordination in emergencies for seven years, based out in Geneva. Since 2019, Gavin's worked at UNICEF Innocenti initially to develop a humanitarian research strategy and portfolio for children and adolescents in humanity, Syrian and fragile contexts, and over the past few years, his focus has been in directing research on the inclusion of children with disability.

Patrizia Faustini

Welcome, Gavin, and thank you for taking time to be with us today. Before starting our conversation, would you like to say something about you? How did you started your career and how did you end up leading on children with disabilities?

Gavin Wood

Thank you. But it's, Goodness. Well, my career spans 30 years and has taken a rather zigzag path, initiated back in 1989 with a degree in geography and environmental sciences. I was actually drawn to soil science and land use, which led me to explore land use change through satellite image data. And I spent 16 years, in that field of Earth observation and earned a master's degree and the opportunity to teach postgraduate students about satellite data processing, software programming and information systems. And I also completed a PhD. And you will already notice this has nothing to do with what I'm currently doing. And I think it was Søren Kierkegaard who, who said, that life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards.

And I think this resonates with my own career journey. So, in 2010, I joined UNICEF and after the devastating earthquake in Haiti, I use my technical skills in managing teams, large data sets, analysis techniques and geographic information systems to support relief efforts in water supply, sanitation and hygiene promotion. And since then, I've contributed to many emergency responses around the world.

And in doing so, one lesson I've learned is that it's too easy to get lost in spreadsheets and databases and view large groups of affected populations as homogeneous and forgetting that each person has a unique story with different challenges and needs. And the motto “leave no one behind” reminds us that we must recognize these differences, especially those related to factors like gender, ethnicity, age, and, of course, disabilities,

factors that can lead to marginalization and disadvantage. So, since 2018, I focused on ensuring that children with disabilities are included in humanitarian efforts and, currently, I have the privilege and responsibility of leading UNICEF's work on developing a global research agenda, for children with disabilities from our UNICEF Global Office of Research and Foresight. And this work is vital to making sure every child is considered unsupported, especially those who are often overlooked.

Patrizia Faustini

Thank you, Gavin, for this introduction. Very interesting career. And, in the in our introduction, Melanie and myself spoke about the UN Convention on the rights of the child. Could you provide an overview and how the Convention addresses the specific needs and rights of children with disabilities?

Gavin Wood

So, the UN Convention on the rights of the child, or CRC for short, was adopted in 1989 and is a pivotal human rights treaty that outlines the rights of children globally. It was developed to address the specific vulnerabilities of children and to ensure that they have access to fundamental human rights protections and freedoms. The CRC was created in response to the recognition that children as a group require special protection due to their developmental needs, and the fact that they are often more vulnerable to exploitation, abuse, and neglect compared with adults.

And the CRC emphasizes the principles of non-discrimination, the best interests of the child, the right to life and development, and the right to be heard. And these principles apply to all children. We must not forget that children with disabilities are first and foremost children, and so the CRC applies to all children equally, though it can be argued that the CRC is especially important for children with disabilities since they face additional challenges due to discrimination and barriers accessing services.

And here, it's important to note that 1 in 10 children have disabilities. So, if we overlook these children, we would be disadvantaging around 240 million children with disabilities worldwide. If we move from the more general to the more specific, article 23 of the CRC directly addresses children with disabilities, and it emphasizes that children with disabilities should enjoy a full and decent life and in conditions that promote dignity, self-reliance, and active participation in society.

It calls on states to provide special care, education and services tailored to the needs of children with disabilities, ensuring their inclusion and development. Other provisions in the CRC are also critical for children with disabilities. For instance, article 28 guarantees the rights to education, which is fundamental to their inclusion. The CRC's holistic approach lays the foundation for advocating for the rights of children with disabilities worldwide, though challenges remain in implementing these rights fully, especially in low resource settings where UNICEF works very hard for all children.

Patrizia Faustini

Thank you, Gavin. That's very important. And there is another Convention that we also mentioned in our introduction, the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Why this Convention is important also for children, and why we do not have a Convention on the rights of children with disabilities?

Gavin Wood

So that's a great question. The Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, the CRPD was adopted in 2006. It is crucial for children with disabilities because it provides specific protections that build on the framework of the Conventions of the rights of the child. It focuses on ensuring that persons with disabilities, including children, can fully participate in all aspects of life on an equal basis with others.

And it addresses key issues such as accessibility, inclusive education, the right to participate in society. There isn't a separate convention for children with disabilities, because both the CRC and CRPD together provide a comprehensive framework for their protection. The CRC addresses the rights of all children, while the CRPD provides more detailed guidance on how to ensure that children with disabilities can enjoy their rights without discrimination. And together, these treaties can ensure adequate protection for children with disabilities. But that said, the CRPD has limitations in fully addressing the evolving capacities of children with disabilities. The CRPD generalized approach does not sufficiently recognize that children are not static, that needs, and their abilities change as they grow. And this evolving capacity requires tailored responses that adapt to their developmental stages, which the CRPD does not fully incorporate.

While the CRPD includes article 7, which addresses children with disabilities, it does not adequately focus on how to implement rights in a way that evolves with the child's growing autonomy and their decision-making abilities. For instance, as children mature, they should increasingly participate in decisions about their education and health care and other matters. Yet, the CRPD lacks specific guidance on how to support this transition. And so, to address these challenges, there is a need for more coordination between the CRPD and CRC and for the development of child friendly services, accessible communication and, bringing it closer to home, more robust research and monitoring mechanisms that reflect children's evolving needs.

Melanie Grant

Hi, Gavin. Thank you very much for joining. It's Melanie here. So, what you've just mentioned some of the challenges with the CRPD. What are some of the major challenges that children with disabilities face in achieving their rights under the Convention of the rights of the children?

Gavin Wood

So hi, Melanie. Thank you. That's a great question. Well, first we must remember that children with disabilities are resilient, creative, and full of potential. Many are vulnerable, but many are not. With the right support and inclusive opportunities, they do excel academically and participate fully in their communities. And inclusive education improves outcomes for all students and fosters empathy.

Advances in assistive technology and inclusive practices are breaking down barriers, and by focusing on abilities rather than limitations, we can create a society where every child thrives and contributes. Nonetheless and unfortunately, children with disabilities are more likely to face discrimination and experience abuse. UNICEF data shows that children with disabilities are 51% more likely never to attend school and are disproportionately impacted by humanitarian crises and climate change compared to their non-disabled peers.

An example in the Gaza Strip today, amongst the hundreds of thousands of children affected. Children with disabilities are one of the most affected, according to one of our partner organizations on the ground, children with disabilities bear the brunt of the situation where evacuation and response plans did not take their needs into consideration. Many who use wheelchairs are stuck in tents put up on sandy grounds, and these kinds of challenges highlight the urgency of addressing the needs of children with disabilities worldwide.

Social stigma and discrimination continue to exclude them from education, healthcare and community life, a problem particularly acute in low-income settings. Families of children with disabilities also bear a heavy financial burden, further limiting their access to necessary services, and even where legal protections exist, enforcement is often inconsistent, leaving these children vulnerable. But despite these challenges, progress is being made.

Advocacy efforts and international cooperation are driving positive changes improving access to education, healthcare, and social inclusion for children with disabilities across the globe.

Melanie Grant

Gavin, earlier you mentioned that children with disabilities are not a homogenous group. Can you expand a bit on that for us?

Gavin Wood

Yes. Children with disabilities are an incredible, diverse group, and their experiences vary widely. Based on many intersecting factors such as the type of disability, gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, and geographic location. And this diversity necessitates tailored approaches to meet their specific needs. In the humanitarian space. We've made good progress in moving the disability inclusion agenda forward.

First, we needed to put it on the table and ensure that data about affected populations included a disability dimension. But to be more effective, we move now to recognizing differences in types and severity of disability. But our main obstacle in, doing this is not through intent. It's money. We need more resources and capacity to collect operational data to understand this diversity and serve the needs of everyone.

Some examples. Disabilities can be physical, sensory, intellectual, or psychosocial, and each requiring different forms of support. So, for example, children with mobility impairments may need assistive devices, while those with intellectual disabilities may benefit from specialized learning programs and other forms of assistive technology. And disability is only one dimension, and many children with disabilities do not define themselves that way or see themselves in terms of a disability. The experiences of children with disabilities are also shaped by other aspects of their identity, such as gender ethnicity and this means, for instance, that girls with disabilities may face both gender and disability-based discrimination affecting their access to education and healthcare even more so, an intent technical language we refer this to as intersectionality. There are socio economic factors to children with disabilities from low-income families or rural areas often face additional barriers to accessing services, as resources are typically concentrated in urban centers and may be cost prohibitive for disadvantaged families. So, recognizing this, diversity is essential for developing effective policies and programs that address the unique needs of different subgroups within the population of children with disabilities.

Patrizia Faustini

Thank you, Gavin. And now, just to mention something positive, can you discuss some successful strategies or programs implemented to promote the inclusion of children with disabilities?

Gavin Wood

This is a good point and very central to the work that we are doing at Innocenti, which is to understand what works to promote inclusion. I mentioned earlier about the various conventions that don't necessarily present how things should be done to be effective. So, promoting the inclusion of children with disabilities requires innovation and effective strategies. At Innocenti we focus on understanding what works. Inclusion Matters report highlighted critical gaps. For example, we lack sufficient evidence on effective strategies to improve inclusion for children. This underscores the need for further research and investment. Despite these gaps, several programs have demonstrated success in advancing inclusion for children with disabilities. One of those is inclusive education programs.

So inclusive education integrates children with disabilities into mainstream schools supported by specialized resources, assistive technologies, and trained educators. Research shows that inclusive education enhances academic outcomes and fosters social integration. However, many schools, and many school systems struggle with under-resourced classrooms and a lack of trained teachers, indicating that significant investments are still needed. Community based rehabilitation is another example.

CBA is an important tool in areas with limited formal services, focusing on community involvement and holistic care. Whilst aligns with modern disability rights principles, CBA faces criticism and challenges such as inconsistent quality and overburdened communities. Successful CBR requires robust training, support, and oversight to maintain high standards and effectiveness. Organizations like UNICEF lead global advocacy efforts that challenge negative stereotypes and promotes the inclusion of children with disabilities in all areas of life.

And these campaigns are essential in shifting public perceptions and driving policy changes. And the other big area this is important for UNICEF is in assistive technologies. So, access to assistive technologies such as communication devices and mobility aids empowers children with disabilities to participate more fully in education and social activities and in play. Universal design for learning and accessible digital textbooks plays crucial roles in making educational materials more accessible and inclusive for diverse learners.

All these strategies illustrate that with the right support, children with disabilities can thrive, contributing to their communities and breaking down the barriers to inclusion.

Melanie Grant

Gavin, I imagine it must be quite hard to kind of get feedback from children, you know, how can we oh, children with disabilities, I should say, how can we ensure that children with disabilities are given a voice on matters that affect them?

Gavin Wood

So, ensuring that children with disabilities have a voice in decisions that affect their lives is crucial to upholding their rights and fostering their participation in society. And in fact, perhaps I should not be here speaking for them. There are many influential children and youth with disabilities who can speak for themselves and more powerfully than me. But things that we can do include having inclusive participation mechanisms. So, governments and organizations can create platforms such as child parliaments, advisory councils that include children with disabilities. These forms should be accessible and designed to accommodate the needs of all children, ensuring meaningful participation. Accessible communication is also important. Providing information in accessible formats such as sign language or easy to read materials, Braille and using web compliant accessibility standards are essential for enabling children with disabilities to express their views, and communication tools such as augmented and alternative communication and AC devices can be made available to children with speech or communication difficulties. Child led advocacy is another important area supporting this, where children with disabilities advocate their own rights, can be effective in amplifying their voices, and youth groups for children with disabilities provide a space for them to express their concerns and contribute to public concerns. And through this mechanism, we include and listen to all children, and we have many opportunities in our research and advocacy to engage children and also provide them with these platforms. And the last point is, of course, empowering families and caregivers who play a pivotal role in advocating for the rights of children with disabilities.

Melanie Grant

I was going to ask, Gavin, is it is it a case of bringing children with disabilities into or a kind of immersing them into groups, wider groups with all children, rather than having specific groups for children with disabilities?

Gavin Wood

Sure, I think it's important that different groups do have their own space to communicate and feel free to discuss issues. But yes, I think inclusive spaces are important and I wouldn't necessarily see it as bringing children with disabilities into mainstream spaces but thinking more holistically about bringing everybody together in the same space. So, everyone's moving into that space rather than, again, feeling that perhaps there is an enabler’s view and all of a sudden we're going to, oh, we must bring in children with disabilities, and … but this is happening and, I've mentioned that UNICEF and other organizations are already giving a platform to children with disabilities and organizations like the International Disability Alliance and others provide these platforms where we can listen in and be invited by them to join their spaces, which is which is very exciting.

Melanie Grant

What kind of role do families and communities play in supporting the rights of children with disabilities?

Gavin Wood

They're central to supporting the rights and well-being of children with disabilities. So, there are a number of areas of advocacy and one… families often serve as the primary advocates for children with or without the disabilities, ensuring that their rights are respected in education, healthcare and social services. And they work closely with schools, healthcare providers and local authorities to secure necessary accommodations and support care and support families, provide essential care and emotional support, helping children with disabilities navigate daily life. This includes assisting with mobility and communication and a range of daily living activities, as well as offering psychological support to build confidence and resilience. And in cases of severe disabilities, the child may rely completely on the parent or caregiver for everything. Access to services is important, and families and communities often connect children with disabilities to those essential services.

Community based organizations and advocacy groups provide resources and information that help families navigate very complex systems. Communities also play a key role in fostering an inclusive environment, creating accessible public spaces, offering inclusive community programs, and promoting a culture of acceptance, and they're all essential for the social inclusion of children with disabilities. So, and this is super important, if we are to tackle stigma, which is one of the most significant barriers to inclusion.

Patrizia Faustini

And, what about international cooperation? How can it enhance the implementation of the rights of children with disability?

Gavin Wood

So international cooperation also plays a critical role. So, by fostering global collaboration, sharing best practices and providing much needed resources, and that kind of cooperation can take several forms. So, knowledge sharing is one. Countries can exchange successful models of inclusive education, health care and social integration for children with disabilities. So, for example, sharing expertise from nations that have developed robust inclusive education systems can help others implement similar strategies; improving access to quality education for all children; financial and technical support, so international organizations like our own UNICEF and the World Bank and others provide financial aid and technical assistance to low- and middle-income countries. This support helps build infrastructure, train educators, and develop policies that benefit children with disabilities. These resources are vital for ensuring that children in under-resourced areas have access to the services they need.

When it comes to global advocacy, international cooperation strengthens advocacy efforts, raising awareness of the rights of children on a global stage and coordination efforts can influence international policy, ensure that disability rights are integrated into global development agendas such as the Sustainable Development Goals. I've mentioned research and data collection. This is where our Global Office of Research and Foresight is ramping up collaborative research initiatives to help identify global challenges and solutions. I'm working with my colleague Alessandra Ipince and with great support from International Disability Alliance, the International Center of Evidence and Disability at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, the Stellenbosch Disability Research Hub, the center for Disability Rights in Belfast, Perkins International and many, many others to identify where international collaborative research is needed. In summary, international cooperation enhances the implementation of rights of children with disabilities by promoting the knowledge sharing, providing critical resources, driving global advocacy and importantly to my work supporting research and coordinating humanitarian efforts, through these collaborations we can build a more inclusive world where every child with disability has the opportunity to thrive.

Patrizia Faustini

And as you mentioned, research, Gavin, what is the role it has in implementing the rights of children with disabilities.

Gavin Wood

International human rights treaties do not provide know-how on how to improve inclusion in the most effective and impactful ways. And I've touched on this earlier. It does not provide guidance on what works, in other words. So, this is where research plays a fundamental role in answering what works; research can provide evidence-based insights that inform policy, guide program development, and shape public discourse and advocacy.

I think the role of research includes several critical areas. So, one is informing policy and practice, evaluating effectiveness, raising awareness and advocacy, identifying gaps and innovations, and providing global comparisons and benchmarks. Now, some of the podcast listeners might now be wondering, but what specific research is needed? And I mentioned earlier, I work at Innocenti in developing a global research agenda for children with disabilities and doing so, we sought feedback from over 400 experts and practitioners from around the world to identify where research is most needed.

And so, these include early identification and intervention for children with disabilities looking at cost effective, scalable inclusion education models for low resource settings that promote enrolment, retention and learning and development. Another is preventing and protecting children with disabilities from all forms of violence and abuse. Looking at social protection interventions to support families with disabilities, with disability related expenses to access appropriate and affordable assistive devices and care. These are just some of the areas that have been identified as priority that, if resourced, will make an impact on the real lives of children with disabilities. So, research is vital, I think, for advancing the rights of children. It informs policy, monitors progress, drives innovation, raises awareness, and contributes to a more inclusive society again, where all children can thrive, play together, learn together, and grow up, to be adults together.

Melanie Grant

So, Gavin, what measures can be taken at the policy level to improve the social inclusion of children with disabilities?

Gavin Wood

Improving, social inclusion of children with disabilities requires comprehensive policy measures, that will address barriers they face in accessing three, perhaps more but three key areas: education, healthcare, and social participation. Education is a fundamental right, and inclusive education systems are key to social inclusion. Policies should ensure that children with disabilities have appropriate access to mainstream schools, where they can learn alongside their peers, that we recognize that children with disabilities require tailored approaches to learning.

All children require tailored approaches to learning, anti-discrimination, and legislation. Such laws are critical to protecting children with disabilities from exclusion. These laws should cover all areas, including education, health care, employment, access to public services. Enforcement mechanisms should be in place to ensure that children with disabilities and their families have legal recourse if their rights are violated.

Another aspect in policy is ensuring an accessible infrastructure, and accessible spaces and services, ensuring physical and communication accessibility is essential and at the heart of including children with disabilities, with disabilities, and to allow them to participate in society. So, policies should be prioritized in the development of accessible public spaces, transportation, and communication systems. Programs, that focus on retrofitting schools and public buildings to meet accessible standards have proven effective in some countries, so it's never too late, to make things more accessible. Social protection programs can help alleviate the financial burden, which we mentioned earlier. The cost of disability and caring for children with disabilities is high. So, policy should ensure that families have access to disability allowances, healthcare subsidies and other forms of financial support. And these programs are particularly important in low-income countries where the cost of care can be prohibitive for many families. Our own research shows that cash assistance in humanitarian settings has proven very effective, and participation in decision making.

So, the actual policy making, the policy creation, children with disabilities should be actively involved in decisions that affect their lives, you know, nothing about us, without us is the call of the disability community, and policies should create opportunities for them to participate in these processes, whether through consultation mechanisms that we've done in our own research development in schools, youth councils or advisory bodies at a national level. So I think to summarize, you know, , improving social inclusion of children with disabilities requires a multifaceted approach that includes inclusive education, strong anti-discrimination laws, accessible infrastructure and, social protection programs.

Patrizia Faustini

Thank you. Gavin. We just came almost to the end of our conversation. To finish off, we'd like to ask you one last question if you don't mind. What are the three most urgent things you want to have for children with disabilities worldwide?

Gavin Wood

So well, I think without a doubt, more inclusive education. So, this has been mentioned now a couple of times, throughout this podcast. So, ensuring access to inclusive education is one of the most urgent needs for children with disabilities globally. Inclusive education would mean children with disabilities can learn alongside their peers in mainstream schools with appropriate support and accommodations.

This also fosters social inclusion and helps break down these barriers and stigma, which brings us to the second point. So, reducing discrimination and stigma against children with disabilities is another urgent priority. Negative societal attitudes often lead to exclusion from education, health care and social activities, so public awareness campaigns, anti-discrimination laws and communication education initiatives are essential for changing these attitudes, including elimination of violence and abuse.

And I think the third one, I would say would be more access to health care and support services. Access to healthcare is critical for the well-being of children with disabilities. This includes early screening and intervention, medical care, rehabilitation services, assistive devices, and mental health support. So expanding access to affordable, high-quality healthcare is essential for ensuring that children with disabilities can lead healthy, fulfilling lives.

Patrizia Faustini

Thank you very much, Gavin for this interesting conversation.

Melanie Grant

And thank you very much for joining us. Gavin. It's interesting to hear about your work.

Patrizia Faustini

This was a great conversation with Gavin Wood on the rights of children with disabilities. As we have learned, children with disabilities are resilient, creative and full of potential. And by focusing on abilities rather than limitations, we can create a society where every child thrives and contributes, and their inclusion is a matter of social justice and an essential investment in the future of society, not simply charity or goodwill.

It is an integral element of the expression of realization of universal human rights. The Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the Convention on the Rights of the Child, that we have mentioned several times in our conversation, lay the foundation for each country and community to undertake a fundamental review of the situation of children with disabilities and to take specific steps to promote their inclusion in society.

Despite progress made over the last decade, though, children with disabilities and their family constantly experience barriers to the enjoyment of their basic human rights and to their inclusion in society: their abilities are overlooked, their capacities underestimated, and their needs are given low priority. Yet the barriers they face come more from the environment in which they live then from their impairment.

Patrizia Faustini

Don't you think so, Melanie?

Melanie Grant

Yeah, it was it was just very interesting to hear Gavin talk about the work and the research that he is been doing. And, and children with disabilities deserve a space to be heard and not be... and fully included rather than, like, you say, goodwill or charity. And it was just interesting to hear 1 in 10 children have disabilities.

And that is a very, very big figure that Gavin and his work and the research work they're doing, helps, you know, and to quote Gavin, nothing about us without us, it just encapsulates exactly what his work and what needs to be done.

Patrizia Faustini

Thanks so much for listening to this podcast. If you aren't already a subscriber, please do subscribe. If you want to write to us, our email address is [email protected]. Follow us @UnicefInnocenti on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook. Innocenti is spelled as I N N O C E N T I. This episode was produced by UNICEF Innocenti Global Office of Research and Foresight in collaboration with UMECast and the music composed by Hyder Cheema.

I'm Patrizia Faustini.

Melanie Grant

And I'm Melanie Grant, and this is Present Imperfect.

Present Imperfect, episode two: Professor Cecile Aptel on children and justice

Cecile Aptel

That was even the case in certain contexts when there were very high demands for children allegedly responsible for being involved into atrocity crimes to be brought to justice. And that was the case, for instance, in Sierra Leone, and there was a special court for Sierra Leone established by the UN. And again, there were strong local demands and expectations that it would prosecute some of the children who had committed atrocities, but it didn't.

Patrizia Faustini

Welcome to Present Imperfect, the podcast series dedicated to children's rights by the UNICEF Innocenti Global Office of Research and Foresight.

I'm Patrizia Faustini communication specialist at UNICEF Innocenti, and I'm joined by writer and journalist Melanie Grant. Hi, Melanie.

Melanie Grant

Hi. Thanks, Patrizia Glad to be back.

Patrizia Faustini

So today we will talk about children and the law with a special guest and an expert in human rights, security, and justice. But first, let's review the topic. Children interact with the justice system for many reasons. They can be victims, survivors, witnesses when accused of an offense such as an interested party or because an intervention is needed for their care, protection, health, or well-being.

The term access to justice defines their ability to seek and obtain a fair, equitable, and timely remedy for violations of rights, such as, for example, the right to a fair trial and equality before the law.

Melanie Grant

Now, today, we'll be discussing major concerns regarding violations of children's rights in juvenile justice systems, an area the Committee on the rights of the child has often paid attention to, and yet not seen as a top priority in many countries,  and will go through binding and non-binding international law, the legal standards pertaining to the protection of child victims of international crimes, and those children who allegedly participated in such crimes.

Patrizia Faustini

Let me also add that ensuring access to justice for every child means his or her legal empowerment, taking into account their age and evolving capacities. Establishing strong child protection systems to prevent and respond to neglect, abuse, exploitation, violation of rights are also functional to access to justice. The failure of those systems represents a real barrier.

Melanie Grant

Now, access to justice for children is central to the implementation of the convention on the rights of the child, and to achieving all the Sustainable Development Goals. They're also known as SDGs, in particular SDG 16 on just, peaceful and inclusive societies. Access to justice is both a fundamental human right and a mean to enforce other human rights. Yet children's access to justice is often overlooked.

Patrizia Faustini

That's true, Melanie. And to dive deeper into such a complex topic, we have a special guest, Professor Cecile Aptel. Cecile is an international legal practitioner recognized for her expertise in international criminal justice, international humanitarian law, human rights, and child rights. And she's currently the deputy director of UNICEF Innocenti. She is also professor at Fletcher and a visiting professor at Harvard.

Before, she worked for several United Nations entities, thinktanks and nongovernmental organizations at headquarters as well as in Africa, Middle East, and in the Balkans.

Melanie Grant

Until 2019, Cecile was director and acting Under Secretary General at the International Federation of the Red cross and Red Crescent. And previously she was the senior legal policy advisor to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. She contributed to the creation of several international mechanisms and tribunals, including on Syria, Lebanon, Bosnia Herzegovina and the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda.

She brings a multifaceted expertise to the topic of justice, informed by both child's rights and as a justice practitioner with firsthand experience of investigating and trying crimes.

Patrizia Faustini

And Cecile is also a renowned academic who has taught graduate courses, notably at The Fletcher School, Harvard, Pretoria and Oxford. She is a widely published author on children's rights, international law, and justice. And her recent book, Atrocity Crimes Children and International Criminal Courts is an invaluable resource for anyone working in the area of international criminal law, international human rights, child rights law, international humanitarian law, child protection and transitional justice.

And now let's welcome Cecile.

Patrizia Faustini

So welcome, Cecile, and thanks for taking time to be with us today. As you know, we will talk about children and the law, a favourite topic for you and definition and terminology are particularly important in this area. So, we often use different expressions as synonyms, including for example access to justice, juvenile justice, justice for children. Can you help us understanding them a bit better please?

Cecile Aptel

Certainly. And first, thank you very, very much for having me, Patricia. And I'm very happy to be speaking with you today. Yes. In the judicial context, the term juvenile justice usually refers to children who are in conflict with the law, who are accused or convicted of an offense. So juvenile justice usually refers to the systems that process children who are accused of having committed crimes.

As you rightly noted, many of the children interact with justice systems for many other reasons, not because they have violated laws, but because they are victims or survivors or witnesses or are interested party in the criminal proceedings. Many children need the protection of the law and interventions of the justice systems to provide them with the protection and guarantee their rights. So, this is why they need access to justice and what is meant when referring broadly to justice for children. So, these are the different terms between juvenile justice and more broadly, justice for children.

Melanie Grant

Cecile, it's Melanie here. Thank you so much for joining us. What are the most relevant child focused norms in both binding and non-binding international law, which regulate the juvenile justice system? And would you say there's sufficient?

Cecile Aptel

There are many of them. The main one is the Convention on the rights of the child, which is the main source on child rights generally, and also specifically when considering justice systems and children. The Convention on the rights of the child,  I'll call it the Convention, is binding, and it is important to recall that almost all states in the world, all but one, have acceded to it.

This Convention sets the overarching principles for justice. It also insists on crime prevention, diversion or exclusion from criminal process, meaning that children should be diverted or not go through criminal processes, and it also insists on rehabilitation rather than punishing children. It also addresses criminal procedure for children, the conditions of their detention and issues of privacy. This Convention has been interpreted by the Committee on the rights of the child, the UN Committee on the rights of the child, that's its role, it has interpreted these rules and advice on how to implement them. So let me insist on a few very important principles sets in the convention on the rights of the child. One: crime prevention. It is better to prevent children from committing crimes, for instance by investing in their education and community policing, and also investing in specific prevention programs.

A second principle too: diversion or exclusion from criminal processes. Children who are in conflict with the laws should preferably not be tried, but rather go through other systems like social systems and education systems. And these two are closely linked with the third important principle: rehabilitation. Efforts should be devoted to rehabilitating children rather than punishing them. Rehabilitation also contributes to creating a virtuous cycle, as rehabilitation help prevent further crimes.

So, you were asking other norms, there are many of the norms, in addition to the Convention on the rights of the child, although important ones for child justice and its implementation include the so-called Beijing rules, some model law on juvenile justice, the Vienna Guidelines and the UN model strategies, measures addressing violence against children in criminal justice. They are also, the so-called Riyadh Guidelines on prevention, the Bangkok rules that focus on mothers and girls, the Havana rules on child detention. So, you see that there are many, many, child specific, in fact, instruments. And then in addition, there are also other international texts which are not specifically about children, but more generally about justice issues. And they, of course, also apply and are very important when we consider justice for children. Among these are, for instance, the UN basic principles of restorative justice, the so-called Nelson Mandela rules on detention, and also the human rights instruments.

So, when we look at all of these norms, taken together, they form a very strong foundation for child justice. But you are asking whether there are sufficient. In terms of the rules, they are. But the challenge is that they also need to be made into law. They are non-binding norms, and they need to be translated into law by the states and then that needs to be applied in practice. And that's where we see maybe more weaknesses. So, a strong legal, a very strong legal foundation, but then the application is often lacking.

Patrizia Faustini

So, thank you, Cecile. It seems that there are many tools that apply to juvenile justice and I'm wondering what are the differences between the principle and approaches that underly a general justice system and that to be applied to juveniles. So, what are the differences? What are the main principles and approaches that you would highlight?

Cecile Aptel

So, overall, the principles of juvenile justice are those that I was just mentioning enshrined in the Convention on the rights of the child. They recognize and promote child dignity, child rights, sorry, and the best interest of the child considering the age of children. And they seek really to rehabilitate children without discriminations. And there are a number of other guarantees, overall, in fact, what the Convention on the rights of the child does is that it envisages a protective architecture that is composed of two parts that depends on the age of the child concerned: younger children, those below that the minimum age of criminal responsibility should be presumed not to be criminally responsible, and for children older that then that defined minimum age while they can be tried, the modalities known as those of juvenile justice should apply and the primary objectives should be rehabilitation and reintegration. So really what we see, is that there are those systems being developed and they are quite different from, you know, when we compare them with the principles and approaches that are those of the general justice systems, it's important to remember that children do, of course, benefit from all of the same human rights than adults, but the system that is there for them is much more protective and much more geared towards, first, diverting them or not having them grow through the justice systems, and -  two - seeking to rehabilitate them, when it's not always what we see in terms of justice for adults.

Melanie Grant

Cecile, what is the minimum age of criminal responsibility?

Cecile Aptel

The minimum age of criminal responsibility is the youngest age at which a child can be prosecuted and punished under a state's criminal laws. It is usually based on when a child is believed to be able to appreciate the nature of the crime that he or she has committed, and also the consequences of criminal acts. So, even if they have committed a criminal offense and actual crime, children younger than that age cannot be formally charged with the offense or subjected to any criminal legal proceedings. So, this is an important age because it can help prevent children being harmed by age in appropriate justice systems or even punitive approaches. The challenge is faced when looking at the minimum age of criminal responsibility includes the fact that the states and legislators in some countries may exclude certain types of crimes from that, for instance, state security.

They may also exclude pretrial or administrative detention or other measures. And so based on the age, they can also look at the age at the child, at the age at which a child is sentenced, rather than the age the child had when the offense was committed. In some states, the age of criminal responsibility is lowered for serious offenses, and those supportive of a lower age of criminal responsibility often react to headline grabbing media reports on the participation of children in serious crimes. For instance, when children are part of gang, that, you know, gangs that are involved in killings or armed violence. There are also problems with the interpretation, application, and alternatives, you know, for instance: shouldn't the application be based on an assessment of individual developmental delays rather than to be said for all? And this is an important question when we look at the minimum age of criminal responsibility. Also, a practical challenge is that the age cannot be readily proven in places with poor birth registrations, which are unfortunately many around the world. In any case, from a child rights perspective, an alternative to punitive sanctions is needed, providing appropriate social support to the development of the child and to prevent future contact with the justice systems.

Melanie Grant

It sounds like, the age of criminal responsibility is quite subjective, depending on where you go and what countries, and so forth. Would you say it's often so as the panacea for resolving the problem of juvenile delinquency?

Cecile Aptel

You're absolutely right, Melanie. There are very different, situations across different countries. In fact, the laws of many states stipulate a minimum age of criminal responsibility. But we don't have that in all states. And in those that have, we find different ages. In fact, you know, sometimes we have very low ages and sometimes it goes all the way to 18 years old. The Convention on the rights of the child requests states to have a minimum age of criminal responsibility, but it does not set an actual age. So, what we've seen is the Committee on the rights of the child repeatedly recommending that states, that are party to the Convention on the rights of the child, increase the minimum age of criminal responsibility. And for those states that do not have one, that they set it up. And so, what we have as indications on the part of the Committee on the rights of the child is indications that it regards 12 years of age as the absolute minimum age for criminal responsibility, and it has urged countries to continue to increase it to a higher level. But setting minimum age of criminal responsibility diverges considerably. And then also the practice, that's looking into the determination of that age and the standards that are applied also change. In some states, the age of criminal responsibility as low as seven years old, in others it is 18, as I was just mentioning. So, there is no global consensus regarding the youngest age at which a child can be deemed to form a criminal intent and be tried and convicted of a criminal offense. So, clearly, as you said, it's not a panacea.

Patrizia Faustini

And there are also divergent opinions on minimum age. Someone… many people, many think that it should be as low as possible to guarantee children access to fair trial and equality before the law. So, there are controversial arguments for sustaining one position or the other. So, it's a really critical point for children.

So, talking about the consequences that children may have when they come in conflict with the law, we know that even the minor involvement can have far reaching consequences for young people. So, what are the alternatives?

Cecile Aptel

You're absolutely right. I mean that the consequences can be really very challenging for young people, which is why the issue of privacy is so salient and why even when children are involved with the justice systems, they should really be record that keep their privacy, their name should not be made public, and then they should even be regular ways of expunging public reports, so that legacy doesn't really follow children once they reach adulthood and behind. But, as you rightly pointed out, there are alternatives and, you know, they hit much better that children go to alternative. States, first and foremost, can invest in preventing children from violating the law. And that's really important and it involves, you know, preventive measures for families, education, communities, media, social policies. I mean, a lot of issues that can be done to prevent children from violating the law and that can be done for the general public.

And then you can also have very tailored, prevention programmes that you get at certain categories of children because of the place where they live or because they live in poverty or because they're discriminated against. So, both general prevention program and tailored, specifically tailored prevention programs are important. In addition, as we've discussed, children should be diverted to fair, informal processes, that are more rehabilitative, that can be really, you know, social programs, education programs, again, as a way of not taking them to the criminal and through the criminal justice systems, but to alternative and seek to rehabilitate them. So, we always come back to the same principles when we think of criminal justice, you hear me constantly hammer this message in prevention, diversion and then rehabilitation. All of these seek to reduce the long-term effects of exposure or by, you know, ensuring that the children have alternatives. And as I was mentioning, it's also extremely important that the records be expunged of any forms of contact with the law or even the alternatives. The re-add guidelines that I mentioned earlier, the UN model strategies and measures addressing violence against children in criminal justice, really develop what preventive measures can be, they also set up means for the early diversion of children in contact with the laws that include warnings and again, education, restorative justice. UNICEF as the UN entity with the mandate of children is very active working with governments and other partners around the world on detention alternatives, but also justice alternatives and has developed guidance that are both, that is we find both has global guidance, regional guidance and also providing country specific services to advise teachers in that regard.

Patrizia Faustini

I am also curious about differences… gender differences in juvenile justice. Many times, when we think of children in conflict with the law, we tend to think of boys. But of course, there are also girls who are in conflict with the law. Are there gender differences in juvenile justice and in the pathways to justice between girls and boys?

Cecile Aptel

Yes, certainly there are but. unfortunately, there's also very large gaps in the availability of data on these issues. And that's true when we look at the differences between girls, girls and boys. And it's especially the case when we look also at non-binary understanding of genders. But yet we have enough information or data to really know that gender differences play a key role in the social understandings of especially how children deviate from societal norms or legal standards. For instance, when, while boys and girls share many risks factors for delinquent behaviour, such as deviant peers and low parental monitoring, girls also have gender specific development pathways to delinquency. They are more likely to enter the juvenile justice systems for offenses such as running away from an abusive home or for prostitution or abortion. These are obviously, you know, very different and really impact girls and not boys and in practice and that's terribly sad. Girls’ pathways to delinquency seem to be more often than boys linked to victimization experiences, such as physical retaliation against someone who has abused them or engaging in substance abuse to cope with the psychiatric symptoms arising from prior victimization experiences. So, so that's terribly sad and having a very negative impact on girls. But at the same time, data suggest that girls are also more often diverted from criminal justice systems than boys. So, there we find, you know, the gender balance being in favour of girls. Boys are less likely than girls to be diverted to alternative systems. We have some data back from 2021 that suggests that about 93% of children in detention globally, were boys, 93%.

Yet at the same time, we also know that in arrest and detention, girls face different risks and probably higher risk than boys in terms of privacy invasions, sexual violence, and interference in the role that they may have as primary caregivers of children themselves, their own children or siblings. So just by those, you know, few examples, we clearly see and know that there are gender differences, and we absolutely need more data to better measure and understand these differences. But I think that overall, recognizing gender specific risk factors and developmental pathways is crucial for designing much more effective interventions within the juvenile justice systems.

Melanie Grant

It’s unbelievable Cecile 93% are boys! That's quite a figure. You talked, you know, you talked about the pillars and so forth, and you talk about rehabilitation. I presume that for juvenile offenders, detention isn't the best solution, but does international law regulate the detention?

Cecile Aptel

Yes. Clearly, international law sets very clear limits in terms of the detention of children. The deprivation of liberty, which is slightly larger than detention because it's, for instance, when children are being held in police cells, for instance, so deprivation of liberty, including arrest, detention, imprisonment should be used, only as a measure of last resort under international law and so measure of last resort, but also, for the shortest appropriate period of time. So, no child shall be unlawfully or arbitrarily, deprived of his or her liberty. And the Convention on the rights of the child makes these very, very clear. Because deprivation of liberty is a measure of last resort, and again, as I said, for the shortest appropriate period of time, there must be alternatives to detention be made available for children. And to mention a few of these alternatives, they include counselling, probation, community service, community monitoring, their report centers, foster care and of course programs, educational programs or training programs and other alternatives to institutional care. So, there's a number of services and programs that states should put in place to have these alternatives to detention.

And, also, while detention is a measure of last resort for children, considering that some children are indeed deprived of the liberty, international law also sets rights for those children deprived of liberty. Every child, in these circumstances, has the right to prompt access to legal and other appropriate assistance. They have the right to challenge the legality of their deprivation of liberty before court or before another authority, and they have the right to a prompt decision on any such challenge. Importantly as well is that, when we look at children in detention, they should not be placed in adults’ detention facilities, but be separated from adults, although there are a few permitted exemptions, for instance, to be detained with the parents when it is in the best interest of the child. Children also have the right to maintain contact with their families through correspondence and visits, which means that children should be kept in facilities as close as possible to their, families. Residents are not sent to the other side of the country. Exceptional circumstances, you know, can actually exist where children should not be in touch with their families, but that's really exceptional and the principle is that they should be detained as closely as possible to their family’s residence. So, you can see that international instruments do provide really fair number of guarantees and why? It's because protecting children deprived of liberty is a particular concern because we need to protect them from all forms of physical or mental violence, and of abuse. In many countries, children deprived of liberty may be exposed or even subjected to violence from fellow inmates or even from the authorities. Sexual violence against children is a real problem in many places of detention. I mentioned it for girls. It's also unfortunate impact boys as well. At the hands of authorities, children are sometimes subjected to violence amounting to torture, with very limited opportunities to complain. Leaving behind closed doors, away from their families and often without external oversight, children are dependent on the goodwill of those in charge, so the Committee on the rights of the child has underlined that any disciplinary measures must be consistent with upholding the dignity of the juvenile. But, you know, just really clearly deprivation of liberty has very many negative consequences for the development of children. It really undermines the reintegration and, as we saw, the whole process of juvenile justice is to promote reintegration. Far too often, detention pushes children deeper into exclusion. So, you know, it's really, is important that we get children out of detention. If there is a risk that they, in fact, are exposed to more violence in detention, which in turn will augment the risk of them becoming involved in criminal activities, creating that vicious cycle, so again, that's why international law clearly limits the deprivation of liberty of children to be used only as a measure of last resort and for the shortest possible time.

Patrizia Faustini

Dignity is, something that we should remember in any situation, the dignity of human beings. And, children, including children, of course. So, it's something that we should preserve any time. And, thinking of that, I now want to ask you about children involved in atrocities, either as victims or perpetrators. Have juveniles been tried or convicted for crimes such as war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide?

Cecile Aptel

Thank you. Patricia, this is really something, very dear to my heart. You mentioned, I think earlier my recent book, that is entitled Atrocity Crimes, Children and International Criminal Court and I mean this is really clearly an area where on the one hand, you know, this is my book that focused on international court, but as I did the research, I also realized that this is an area where we need much more data, especially in terms of the practice at the national level. So, when we look at those atrocity crimes as you mentioned, war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, there's not much indication that there's been many children being tried or convicted except for war crimes, and for international courts that, starting with the international military tribunals of Nuremberg and Tokyo that was established in the post second World War and going all the way to today, the situation that the International Criminal Court, international tribunals have not investigated all prosecuted children for committing these crimes. So, it's a very interesting area because at the same time, we know from also historical research and studies, that there have been children involved, including in fact, in, you know, under the Nazi regimes in Germany, the Japanese empire in Tokyo and yet, really, those historical international courts did not really look at the involvement of children. There's only been one exception, which was in East Timor, but that was an oddity because the child concerned was ultimately not convicted of an international crime. Instead, what we have seen, especially for international tribunals is that instead of focusing on the prosecution of children, they have omitted children from the scrutiny, and they have focused rightly, I think, on prosecuting high ranking leaders.

And that was even the case in certain contexts, when there were very high demands for children, allegedly responsible for being involved into atrocity crimes, to be brought to justice. And that was the case, for instance, in Sierra Leone, and there was a special court for Sierra Leone established by the UN. And again, there were strong local demands and expectations that it would prosecute some of the children who had committed atrocities, but it didn't. And that is because the international courts, prosecutors, you know, usually concentrate on those bearing the greatest responsibility commonly seen as the ministers, the generals and top leaders of armed groups. And in those that plan or orchestrate the crimes. And in so doing, they do not pursue the offenses committed by children who do not usually occupy those positions of authorities. So interesting to see that this is an area where we've not seen many developments at the international level, but in some national contexts, thinking, for instance, in contexts that include Iraq or Nigeria, we're seeing some of these prosecutions occurring now.

Patrizia Faustini

What about, then, children, victims of those atrocities? Have they historically received justice? Have the international tribunals dealt with them?

Cecile Aptel

So, for a very long time, these international tribunals did not, in fact, also pay much attention to children. Again, when we look back at the historical example of the Nuremberg and Tokyo tribunals, they did not pay much attention to children at all. In fact, it's only with the Special Court for Sierra Leone in the 1990s and especially 2000, that we start to see some international courts paying attention to some of the children victims of atrocities and, both at the Special Court for Sierra Leone and then very shortly after at the International Criminal Court, the attention was focused until very recently on one single category of children, and these are the so-called child soldiers, the children that were recruited by armed groups or armed forces to themselves directly participating in those cases. And I actually find that slightly problematic, because by looking at these specific categories, it has sometimes mudded the water, because those children are also those that sometimes, but not always, but sometimes are themselves involved in in atrocities. It is only very recently that we have seen much more efforts, at really broadening the scope and looking at a much broader set of children victims of atrocities. And that's really important because, we really know that in all contexts where we have war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide occurring, and we can think of, you know, recent and ongoing cases, children are certainly among the victims. So these efforts to really broaden the access to justice to these children is crucial because the lack of accountability for crimes against children ultimately leaves children vulnerable to further violations and abuses. And, you know, the reverse is that or, conversely, criminal investigations and trials raise the public awareness of the crimes that target children and so that's really important to help break the cycle of violence. I also think that criminal accountability can contribute to helping children heal and assist them in understanding that they are not to blame for what has happened to them. And that may seem obvious, but it's in fact not obvious when interacting with children victims of atrocity crime. For those that are able to come to court and testify in highly visible trials, it is a significant mean, for them to be given a voice, and realize their right to participate in hearings that concern them. In fact, there are studies that have demonstrated that for the great majority of survivors, including children, the ability to relate their stories provide them with a therapeutic experience and really, that is really important. And it also leaves, you know, record for history and education. So, I think that we need to really do much better in terms of documenting, documenting really the suffering of children in all of those contexts, where we have war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide.

Melanie Grant

Cecile, you talk about Sierra Leone, my grandmother was from Sierra Leone. So, it was always much the civil war was always much talked about in our household and so forth. And I often wonder, you know, some of those children, did they even think they were victims?

Cecile Aptel

I mean absolutely, Melanie, in fact. And I think really the truth is also that they were victims, it's extremely important that we see that for children, the context in which they grew up, the context of insecurity is often what led them to then turn to violence. There is, I mean, speaking of West Africa, there is a Nigerian say that is, I think, “a child is what you put into him” and that's very, very clear. The context influence children. And because they're recognized as much more vulnerable and also malleable than adults, it's clear that children that grew into a place where there is overwhelming violence, where we know also that children are influenced by peer groups, so especially adolescents, so, if they see many of their friends joining groups there, there's really, and there's societies, you know, being devastated. There's also very little access to education, very little access to opportunities and jobs. It's not very surprising that then children turn to violence or get involved into crime. So that's extremely challenging to, you know, reconcile the fact that they are victims and at the same time, they can, in certain circumstances, also be themselves involved into some of those crimes.

Melanie Grant

So, beyond the International Criminal Court, what's the situation today in terms of child victims or children victims of international crimes? Are there any lessons to learn? What would you say  the lessons and opportunities are?

Cecile Aptel

Yes, I think that there's many lessons to learn and we need to continue learning them. I think it's important that we recognize the specificity of children in all efforts where we try to promote accountability, especially, again, for war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide. In fact, children are many among the victims, and sometimes they are the majority in certain contexts where demographically there are many, many children, they may end up being the majority of the population and the majority of the victims. So, they're not just a sort of an epiphenomenon, but they're rather possibly the average victims of international crimes. And I think that this reality is still not yet recognized. Also, in many contexts, children are directly targeted, often in fact, principally, sometimes exclusively, by the crimes. We were mentioning child soldiers. I mean, you know, it's not a crime to recruit another child, but it is a crime to recruit a child to participate in those cases. But also, any form of crime, affect children differently from others. If we think of forced displacement and in the context of displacement, of course every member of a family is impacted, but the children will be losing access to school, they'll be losing access to, or they'll be losing contact with their friends, possibly. That impacts them in a very different way than forced displacement for adults. And that's just to give you an example. And of course, there's a whole series of international crimes that include famine, that include deprivation from access to health facilities that have a particularly high impact on children because of their physical and psychological vulnerabilities as well. So, I think we really need to accept that children live through these crimes in a different way from adults and also exposing children to violence in their early years, which are their formative years, undermines their sense of what constitutes an acceptable behaviour. And I think that's really very important in terms of breaking the vicious cycle of cross-generational violence as well. So, I really do think that we need to collectively do much better in recognizing that children must be included in the accountability and justice efforts as stakeholders and also as right holders, children's participation and inclusion are absolutely essential to enable really justice. So, children must be recognized as victims because this acknowledges them, and also because it restores their dignity, and it empowers them.

Patrizia Faustini

Wow, Cecile, it was such an interesting conversation, and I learned a lot, really. But we have reached the end of this interview and I would like to ask you what are the next steps to take? What would you recommend to the fulfilment of a truly juvenile justice system in line with the Convention on the rights of the child?

Cecile Aptel

Thank you. Patricia. I really wish I had a magic wand and could really do a lot because a lot is really needed. But there's still many things that need to be done to strengthen, the state's, legislative and policy frameworks, but also to adjust laws and force enforcement and to develop more formal and informal institutions that cater for children. We also need better mental health services. We need legal assistance to be provided to children. And when we look at justice, we can't take it easily on from the associated issues of social welfare and therefore of public finance and budgeting. So, it's really there's a lot of intervention that are needed. So clearly a lot more to do there, I think. I mean, you've heard me already speak of the lack of data in certain areas. We really need to improve data about these systems. That's absolutely required together with research or evaluation, so that we can really assess what works best within the clear constraints of international law that we've discussed. Looking at those children that are in conflict with the law, we must ensure that protective architectures that is envisaged by the Convention on the rights of the child, is in place.

So, that's I mean, you know, to read it, reiterate what I was mentioning earlier, the children below the age of criminal responsibility should be presumed not to be criminally responsible and for those children older than the defined minimum age, juvenile justice should apply. And the primary objectives should be rehabilitation and reintegration. But more generally, Patricia, I mean, if I had this magic wand, I would really want to make sure that we do not have the tree hiding the forest and that, you know, the tree being the children in conflict with the law, those that we think of, when we think juvenile justice, and instead we look at the forest, which are the many other children in need of protection by the law and not those in conflict with the law, those children that are victims or survivors, that are witnesses. We need a lot more efforts to ensure that they are recognized as stakeholders with rights, and also with very specific needs. Let me really emphasize the importance for child survivors to have effective access to justice, meaning that their rights must be realized and that includes their rights to truth, to reparations, and also guarantees of non-recurrence of the crimes.

And that goes from a child living in an abusive home to a child living in a conflict, they should have access to, you know, they should be provided with guarantees that they're not going to be exposed again tomorrow or next week to the same crimes, so that they will not have to suffer all the crimes, especially atrocity crimes, but also that neither will other children. So, there is so much more to do and so much more to do to attain this. But thank you for giving me the opportunity of discussing this with you today.

Melanie Grant

Thank you very much.

Patrizia Faustini

Indeed, Cecile. And, so we thank you very much for being with us and for having talked to us on this incredible topic, which is really complex, as we can understand from what you just said. So, thank you very much, Cecile.

Cecile Aptel

Thank you very much.

Patrizia Faustini

We just heard Professor Cecile Aptel. And, it was really a great conversation, wasn't it? Melanie.

Melanie Grant

Fantastic. I learned so much from Professor Aptel

Patrizia Faustini

And me, too. And I think that children and the law is a very complex topic. And it's really a critical area for the fulfilment of children's rights. I mean, from what she said, I could not imagine any topic more complex and more central to the fulfilment of children's rights. I also think that it came clear from what she said that this is something which is part of a broader well-functioning child protection system which need to guarantee and defend the rights of the of children in many respects and to be in line with what established by the Convention on the rights of the child.

Melanie Grant

Yes. And what was interesting hearing from Professor Aptel is how the challenge, the biggest challenge is working with so many different countries who have different laws, different measures. When she talks about, the age of criminal responsibility, it's such a vast area, and that's just one element of it. I just thought it was it was very interesting.

And she's just got so much knowledge and you could hear the passion in what she was saying, you know, I really could.

Patrizia Faustini

Exactly, exactly. And also about dignity and about prevention as main measures to help children to cope with the situation where they can find themselves, depending on the state, the countries or the families where they grow, and that sometimes they're in a sense victim of what is going on around them. So, I think it was really a great, interesting conversation.

Melanie Grant

It really, really was. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast. If you aren't already a subscriber, please do subscribe.

Patrizia Faustini

And if you want to write to us, our email address is [email protected]. Follow us @UNICEFInnocenti on Instagram, LinkedIn and Facebook. This episode was produced by UNICEF Innocenti Global Office of Research and Foresight in collaboration with UMECast and the music composed by Hyder Cheema.

Patrizia Faustini

I am Patrizia Faustini.

Melanie Grant

And I'm Melanie Grant and this is the Present Imperfect.